Would love to be able to get to the bottom of it. and say i could fix it myself. Yes a debugger would be the next logical step but to be quite honest I find it quite daunting trying not to be defeatist I have never touched high level programing apart from web design before and I wouldn't know where to start to fixed it if i did find the cause, i always think it would take too long to learn. at this point (a debatable topic i know.) looking at your work with lego island the best course of action may well be a full decomp and that is well out of my or anyone's scope for now I am sure! is there a group in which people can put forward games to be worked on? that's why I'm so impressed with your work and the winder community. I'll give debugging a go a guess but I found the tutorials in the past hard to follow with no experience. Have you ever thought about making tutorial videos for debugging? thanks for your time.